The Flinch, Fear and the Fend

[** Serge **]

This was a long thread back in 2004, I've extracted the main posts...enjoy
Den

From Greg
Before I started martial arts and a long time into them I used to think it was a weakness to flinch and I thought I was weak because I could'nt eliminate fear, This was before i did any research.

The Flinch.

About 10 years ago I was in a pub called the Broughton in Cheetham Hill, I was boxing at the time and heavily into the training. One of the locals who was an ex boxer found out that I was boxing and decided to come and have a go.

I got off my stool and he threw out a punch straight away now all i did was flinch and he hit my elbow hurting his hand.

I felt really bad because I flinched everyone was taking the piss saying that all I did was flinch. This did my head in for some time.

Then a few years back I read an article about the flinch/ startle response/ knee jerk reaction whatever you want to call it.

It said that there is a part in the brain that controls just the flinch response and nothing else. The tests proved certain things :

1) The flinch cannot be gotten rid of.

2) It is faster than the flight, freeze or fight response.

3) It can be modified to be your first line of defence if caught by surprise.

The research also shown that there are 3 types of flinch. up close, further away and off to the side.

Over the years I have been shown numerous examples of this in different arts, the fend, the asking hand in wing chun, There are examples of the flinch response in Thai Boxing and Silat. Plus the S.P.E.A.R. All good examples of the flinch response.

So I started to incorporate this into my training and a few years ago on Saturdays nightclub in Manchester I used the flich to save my life.

I was working on a Wednesday night there were 2 of us on and the policy was that after 1 no one was allowed in but the club didn't shut till 2.

Anyway these 3 vietnemeese guys came up to the door and I said "we are shut now mate", The main one replied " If you came to our club in China Town we would let you in" Now my spidy sense was working over time I thought whats he on about there is no club in China town and I told him so.

We exchanged a few more words and the he said" I will be back and I am going to chop your arm off"
So I said"well do it know"

He went away and the last our seemed to drag forever.

My mate was working the front door and I was at the bottom, he shouts me"your mate is back"

My arse started twitching like a rabbits nose.

I went out the front door to front the guy I didn't want him taking me by surprise and said "What the f@xk do you want" He repeated my sentence. I noticed he had a budweiser bottle.

Now at the gym we had been practising distractions to get your shots on. So I felt he was going to throw the bottle at me.

Which he did Followed at warp speed by pulling a machete that was nearly as big as him.

My reponse was to do a kind of shoulder roll on the bottle and kep going towards the door.
I pulled the door over and he whacked the door inches from my head

I could see the machete through the glass as he chopped the door.

He turned and ran and I followed him out throwing a couple of bottles at him.

I heard later that he chopped a doorman in the gay village.

So thank F@xk for the Startle response.

Fear

As for fear Up until I started reading Geoff Thompsons books and other sources I thought I was weak feeling fear.

I tried all sorts to get rid of fear, could never get rid of it though. Constant rationalisation that I bottled it.

Until I read of all the people that deal with fear on a daily basis and seen that they all feel the same way and in fact the bigger the adrenaline rush the better you can perform so long as youy can keep it under control.

Just a couple of points to digest.

Greg
================

From SeanMGN
Agree with all the above. I was very much an advocate of Southnarc's flinch and gave it a large portion of my training time. Once or twice at work it came in very handy.
For anyone that doesn't know, our very own Si Squires has his own version the "fend" that I feel is an improvement on an already great concept.

Sean
===============

From Si Squires

Surely it's "cheque book out" time if we use the word Flinch?

Si
==============

From Seanmgn

Nah, surely even Mr Blauer couldn't manage that could he? I assume you are referring to him. I wonder if the Massai warriors of Africa could sue him for stealing their spear concept?

Paul, here is my semi informed understanding. We all have certain responses pretty much hardwired into us to an unexpected stimulus . Someone throws a ball at your head which you see out the corner of your eye, chances are you will duck slightly ,possibly turn your head away and bring your hands up to your head. That is an instinctive flinch response also known as the startle response.
I am no expert but I beleive it is something we all have and which as well as being very fast is almost impossible to over-ride, as in you just can't help do it. Others on this board will know more. No matter how big and tough you may be , you will respond to a sudden unexpected stimulus. Eg Mike Tyson opens a drawer and a Jack in the box jumps out. Iron Mike will still "jump" in surprise. But , as a result of all that training, it is possible that in doing so he may instinctively cover up a la the boxing guard position.
I understand that by training to build on an instinctive response so that it is more combative (eg hands up but moving forwards rather than back with elbows forward) it is possible to utilise the startle response more effectively than standard martial arts blocking movements.

As I say , others can no doubt explain it better but thats how I understand it.

Sean

===============

From SouthNarc,

I personally stopped using the word "flinch" to describe the physical mechanics of modifying what we do instinctively into something that protects the head and keeps us on our feet. I was taken to task with the definition of flinch as something that could not be controlled, and since we are modifying a natural reaction albiet only slightly, flinch then is somewhat of a misnomer.

The term I use now is "default position" which I feel better describes what we are doing which is ONE thing in the event that we don't take initiative and preemptively strike, which of course is always preferred. A default response is like a seatbelt. It's there if you need it and you usually only do when you didn't use good judgement in avoidance or preemptive maneuvering.

Regardless of what you do it should cover the head adequetely and keep you on your feet for a split second. The objective is to keep from getting knocked out or knocked over for a MOMENT IN TIME, and provide an aggressive launching platform for a furious barrage of striking, knees, low-line kicks and clinching skills to regain that lost initiative from the adversary. We're taking back lost ground just like an immediate action drill for close range ambush, conducted by an infantry squad. Aggression is the key.

All default responses have pros and cons. I teach an asymmetrical default response which takes longer to learn and doesn't cover the head quite as well as a symmetrical response, such as the double vertical elbow shield that Chico King of MMA/Straight Blast gym fame and John Holschen of Insights Training teach. My good friend and colleague Lee Aldridge teaches the "cowcatcher" which is very similiar to Fairbairn's double chin-jab.

One of the main parameters of my default response is extremely quick access to a hand-gun or knife, while in-fight, which the asymmetrical strong hand position excells at. Most of what I do is focused on a weapon in hand for the end-game. Also the asymmetrical position is a bit less narrowing to one's field of view, which is critical with multiple opponents.

Pros and cons with everything but regardless of what you do they ALL work extremely well and are a valid concept for the tool box.
S'narc
===============================

From Den

S'Narc,
I noticed on SDF you were calling your method "notaflinch". Pretty funny.
Flinch, Fend, Coverup, call it what you will, it's an essential part of the overall training. We now understand pre-emptives pretty well. Now guys are starting to realise we don't always have the opportunity to pre-empt. The work that S'Narc, McCann and others are doing is very much filling that gap.
Den
================================

From Greg
The way I practise the startle response is first I sussed out what my natural flinch response was in the differing positions. Then I worked out a way so that they would need minimum re shaping to be a first line of attack, then I began to make realistic drills to incorporate these responses and added appropriate follow ups.
I have used these responses live in the field many times.

I also incorporated them into my sport training, most notably in my freestyle-wrestling practise. I found this one out by mistake.

Once at the Y club in Manchester I hadn’t been doing the wrestling long and one of the guys shot in low for a double leg and I just kinda flinched a straight palm to the side of the neck and he twisted his ankle.

The good thing about the Flinch is that it overcomes mental inertia allowing you to get to the rest of your arsenal rather than freezing which is always a bonus.

Greg

As promised, some pictures and notes, on various options.

HARD GUARD
 
Firstly, we have what is possibly the most natural method, just shielding your head with both arms. Very easy to do, very natural [we see apes do this]. It's the method I first introduce, as being symmetrical it is very positive under stress.



In the picture you can see how Mark tightly grabs the back of his head, raises the elbows, and leans aggressively forward.



The side view shows the protection to the head.


As ever, we test the technique against forceful strikes.

-------------

O'NEILL COVER

Whatever the historicity of the technique, it remains a viable method. In essence, similar to established boxing guards.



Here Steve shows the position. The elbows catch hooks, while the forearms protect against straight shots.



----------------------------

THE FEND

Here Mark L shows the  variation with top palm out



It is essential to keep the arms tight to the head, forming a cage around the vulnerable areas.



The side view shows the forward crouch.



Again, drilled extensively against live attack.

-----------
Note : none of the Fends shown are static methods, they are used while driving forward, within the strike-arc, and always trying to get the attacker off balance.

Dennis Martin's Combatives Community - © - 2007 to 2012

[flocondavoine]

3) It (the flinch*) can be modified to be your first line of defence if caught by surprise.

C'est vraiment un sujet qui me pose question.
Le flinch (pas d'équivalent francophone ?) me parait vraiment être un élément important de la partie sd (du moins dans mon cas) : que ce soit pour se défendre contre une attaque perçue au dernier moment, ou pour ceux qui n'osent pas se "défendre de manière préventive et nécessaire".

Mes interrogations donc, en premier lieu : comment s'entraîner pour transformer cette technique en réflexe conditionné ? Est-ce seulement possible ?
- Seul, quand on a 2 minutes : visualisation mentale (yeux fermés) d'une attaque et du flinch (et suite), idéalement en effectuant le mouvement ?
- Seul en poussant un sac de frappe suspendu ou autre et en entrainant le flinch au retour du sac (de tout les côtés) pour s'habituer à recevoir une force (appuis notamment) ? Intérêt faible je suppose (sauf absence de partenaires) ?
- Avec partenaire(s), avec des exercices dédiés ?
- Avec partenaire(s), en attaquant à tout moment sans indice ?
- Autre ?

Mes interrogations, en second lieu : quelle efficacité ?
Certains d'entre vous ont-ils réussis à modifier leur réflexe de défense ? D'autres ont-ils abandonnés ?
Si oui, le flinch assimilé ressort-il à chaque fois, parfois, de temps en temps, rarement ?
Si oui, à l'aide de quels exercices ?
Au bout de combien d'heures ? J'imagine que les pratiques passées (ancrage) peuvent-être un frein à ce nouveau conditionnement ?
Continuez-vous à l'entrainer de manière spécifique, ou une fois acquis il le reste ?




*Le flinch (excusez l'approximation et corrigez au besoin, mais pour les anglophiles et moi-même) : réaction, mouvement de défense effectué lorsqu'une attaque est perçue trop tard pour rentrer dans l'attaquant, bloquer ou esquiver (voir les photos plus haut).
Permet de limiter les dégâts avant de contre attaquer. C'est une réponse dont on ne peux se débarrasser (1), qui ressort plus vite que les mouvements de fuite, évitement, gel ou attaque (2).
La citation (3) indique que c'est un élément de réponse (inné) pouvant être entrainé et modifié. Histoire d'acquérir un réflexe conditionné de défense qui soit plus efficace que le réflexe inné.


[edit] Précisions

[edit] Je relis le premier post et je lis

The research also shown that there are 3 types of flinch. up close, further away and off to the side.

Autant "de côté" je visualise.
Je crois visualiser "de près".
Mais je capte pas le clinch "further away". Ca correspond à quoi ? Une réponse sur une distance type le spear de bl*uer ?

[Patrick]

Le flinch (pas d'équivalent francophone ?) me parait vraiment être un élément important de la partie sd (du moins dans mon cas) : que ce soit pour se défendre contre une attaque perçue au dernier moment,

J'y ais longtemps réfléchis, mais plus ça va je ne vois pas comment on peut avoir le temps de réagir à une attaque déclenchée par un individu de cette façon.

Il me semble beaucoup plus instinctif et réactif de rentrer, surtotu à partir de la passive stance ;



De plus, il me semble difficile de reprendre l’initiative avec le flinch face à un expérimenté qui est dans sa dimension alors que le fait de rentrer va déstabiliser fugacement permettant d'enchaîner.

[Rouri]

Je désire ajouter simplement que la  «croyance » ou non en la position réflexe de type flinch influence aussi l'entraînement à la SD. Voici à ce sujet les réflexions de Kevin Secours:

« Flinch Training is largely comprised of the modern “combative” or reality self-defense schools. These approaches place full stock in the idea that during an adrenalized crisis state, the human body’s performance will erode and the startle-flinch response will be triggered. Minimizing movements to the simplest gross-motor movements, these methods use instinctive reflexes and positions as triggers for their trained arsenal. In doing this, they arguably achieve faster learning curves, but this shortcut may come with a hefty price tag. In reinforcing the more aggressive instincts of the body, the practitioners may in effect be bypassing their natural inhibition to harm and exposing their bodies and minds to needless levels of stress hormones. In effect, training becomes as chemically harmful as combat and evolves into a source of trauma and injury that may intensify aggression and lead to Post Traumatic Stress Disorders. »

[** Serge **]

Donc, Secours mentionne la possibilité de création de stress traumatique lors d'entrainements impliquant de la programmation.

Il rejoint une de mes peurs, déjà exprimée à quelques reprises sur ce forum.
Je ne doute pas un instant que des apprentis-sorciers causent actuellement plus de dommages qu'ils n'apportent d'aide.

Sa réflexion est intéressante.

[Leif]

rich le precise

vous ne serez jamais autant blesser que ce que vous vous imposer dans la vie, ou lors d'un entrainement.

c'est une réflexion hyper intéressante sur la programmation d'une personne , ce qui est tres facile a effectuer ,apres est ce que des gens ce soucis du futur c'est pas sur .

il faut juste ne pas mentir et se mentir sur ce que vous faites et ou vous aller emmener cette personne .

si les gens voulaient réellement aider leurs prochains on feraient plus de théâtre , on s'organiserait, on ouvriraient des écoles alternatives, on ferait un transfert de connaissances et de savoir.

mais non des écoles de self ils s'en ouvrent pleins, chacun détient le savoir en plus qui sauverait tout le monde, les styles s'annulent ou se critiquent au lieu de se compléter

etre et le paraitre en quelque sorte.

le tout c'est de ne pas se tromper d'outils et de personnes et s'adapter ou demander de l'aide a une personne plus compétente.

la protection personelle pour moi est comme la creation d'une maison , il faut pleins de corps de métiers ppour mener a bien cette construction et non pas une seule et meme personne qui va faire des fondations au finition, mais bien une rencontre de plusieurs personnes qui vont faire un ensemble concret et valide.

Pour ma part par exemple je suis plus un maçon, je travaille a la pelleteuse et a la pelle mais ne prétend pas faire les bandes et poser les plinthes, chacun son job

Donner l'information c'est bien apprendre au gens a la déchiffrer c'est mille fois mieux .

me suis je bien fais compris

[Rouri]

Je ne doute pas un instant que des apprentis-sorciers causent actuellement plus de dommages qu'ils n'apportent d'aide.

Malheureusement les exemples sont légions.

Pour revenir aux réflexions de Kevin Secours:

« Flinch Training does succeed but it does so in most cases without any regard for the intrinsic spirituality or emotion of warriorhood. While it does well in preparing the soldier to harm at a mechanical level, it does little to prepare them to reap what they have sown and scarcely addresses the idea of the emotional aftermath. All reality-based systems are certainly not created equally and some fantastic schools do exist, however, overall, I have seen too many whose proponents are driven by blood-lust and the desire to harm. The goal of Flow Training is to protect the self and not to harm the other. »

[...]

« The flinch ain't all bad. Everyone will flinch to some degree in some situation. There is often a misconception in Systema that we are trying to eliminate the flinch rather than functionalize it or selectively erode it. Imagine of flinchless world of wide-eyed non-blinkers being blinded by camera flashes and errant dust specks, drowning from swallowed water in the shower, etc. America's Funniest Home Videos' crotch hit highlight reel would only get longer. »

[flocondavoine]

Il me semble beaucoup plus instinctif et réactif de rentrer, surtotu à partir de la passive stance ;
(...)
De plus, il me semble difficile de reprendre l’initiative avec le flinch face à un expérimenté qui est dans sa dimension alors que le fait de rentrer va déstabiliser fugacement permettant d'enchaîner.

Serge ou d'autres sauront sans doute mieux nous renseigner, mais il me semble que le flinch est autant que possible dynamique et non statique.
D'ailleurs au niveau sémantique (si j'ai bien compris la définition du flinch) ta réponse (bras vers l'avant, tête rentrée, en poussant) est un flinch.

Le flinch (postures du post initial) n'a-t-il pas l'avantage d'être une "réponse unique" (et pas forcément idéale) plus protectrice : bras ballant ou haut, bien sur ses appuis ou déséquilibré, debout ou assis, face à un adversaire ou plus, au sol ou jeté contre un élément du décor.

Je désire ajouter simplement que la  «croyance » ou non en la position réflexe de type flinch influence aussi l'entraînement à la SD. Voici à ce sujet les réflexions de Kevin Secours:

« Flinch Training is largely comprised of the modern “combative” or reality self-defense schools. These approaches place full stock in the idea that during an adrenalized crisis state, the human body’s performance will erode and the startle-flinch response will be triggered. Minimizing movements to the simplest gross-motor movements, these methods use instinctive reflexes and positions as triggers for their trained arsenal. In doing this, they arguably achieve faster learning curves, but this shortcut may come with a hefty price tag. In reinforcing the more aggressive instincts of the body, the practitioners may in effect be bypassing their natural inhibition to harm and exposing their bodies and minds to needless levels of stress hormones. In effect, training becomes as chemically harmful as combat and evolves into a source of trauma and injury that may intensify aggression and lead to Post Traumatic Stress Disorders. »

J'ai du mal à comprendre.
Le flinch influencerait en renforçant les instincts agressifs du corps (?), les pratiquants contournerait leurs inhibitions à faire mal et en exposant leurs corps-esprit à d'inutiles niveau de stress (hormones). L'entrainement deviendrait chimiquement aussi destructif que le combat et évoluerait en source de trauma et de blessures qui pourraient intensifier l'agression et conduire à un PTSD.

En fait c'est pas que j'ai du mal à comprendre : je ne comprend vraiment pas.
Tout entrainement sur la partie sd, une fois évitement-désescalade-fuite inutiles, ca consiste à trouver une solution pas trop mauvaise pour faire face à un potentiel destructeur, et une fois ses solutions trouvées les entrainer pour gagner en vitesse, fluidité, impact. Et trouver les (ses) limites. On est à peu près d'accord ?
Bref, on sélectionne une technique-principe (nouvelle à implanter ou existante à modifier) et on essaye de l'assimiler.
Du coup je ne vois pas en quoi s'entrainer à "flincher" face à un coup qui arrive et contre-attaquer serait plus destructeur qu'un autre type d'entrainement (similaire niveau intensité d'agression) sans flinch. On va manger et stresser dans tout les cas non ?

me suis je bien fais compris

Je te rassure : pas moins que les autres ! Plutôt plus même.



Personne n'a essayé ou réussi à modifier son "flinch" ? Ou vous ne désirez pas développer ce sujet sur le net ?


[edit] Reformulations
[edit] Ajouts

[** Serge **]

Secours ne stigmatise pas vraiment le ' flinch ' ou sa recherche, mais plutôt les systèmes qui usent lourdement de programmations ( bypass, triggering, anchoring, switching on/off  ) au dépend ( parfois ) du pratiquant.

Je me permets de (re)mettre en ligne, le document autrefois livré par Lee ( Aldridge ) sur une des applications de son cowcatcher :

http://www.safeism.com/pdfs/LACowcatcherDraw.pdf