Science et auto-défense.

[Coltaine]

.

[Leif]

 

je n'ai vu que trois techniques en zappant rapidement et rien de concret mais alors des attaques , rien que le grand dans les vestiaires , la seule chose dangereuse chez lui et sa coupe de cheveux digne des footballeurs.

arf

[Lio]

Il y a un truc similaire dans l'index "MMA vs crash test" je crois. Même analyse mais sur les frappes et clés sportives.

[Lio]

Mais après 15min du documentaire, j'ai l'impression que ça surestime un peu le pouvoir des messieurs spécial force pour faire dans le sensationnalisme.

Enfin, je peux me tromper

Bye

[Lio]

Seulement, Lee Morrison, seuls ceux qui le connaissent vont voir ce qu'il fait. Ce documentaire est grand public, diffusé sur une chaîne du genre Discovery. Il me semble qu'il énonce les principes fondamentaux de la self. Je ne pensais pas qu'il apprendrait quoi que ce soit aux habitués de la discipline comme toi ou Leif. Il a à mon avis le mérite d'attirer l'attention sur des choses basiques mais importantes que le grand public ne connaît pas.

A mon avis, ce documentaire passe des messages "subliminaux" nuisibles en sous-entendant que ce sont des techniques infaillibles, que la self, en fait , c'est facil.

Et la présentation du prof de Kraf, on dirait l'idolatre à un gourou

[gahús]

Porter un coup de genou au pubis ne serait-il pas plus efficace et plus facile à donner qu'un coup de paume ?

[Patrick]

Porter un coup de genou au pubis ne serait-il pas plus efficace et plus facile à donner qu'un coup de paume ?

Plus puissant mais moins précis beaucoup de déchet en situation. De toutes façons il faut vraiment relativiser le broiement des gesticules comme une technique ultime.

Par contre la double cup and blow sue les oreilles testé plusieurs fois ça marche bien si on ne veut pas trop amocher. Je l'ai utilisé notamment pour faire lâcher en situation d'assistance. Et ça désoriente vraiment.

Le ramassé de jambes en situation de SD, une niaiserie, la prise de réflexe de la trachée une encore plus grande niaiserie, sans parler du profil des bellâtres musclés bronzés et à l'air méchant à qui je ne saurais trop conseiller de ne pas prendre leur vacances dans certains quartiers de Marseille. 

Une énième niaiserie ricaine racoleuse sur fonds de science qui vraiment prouve son manque de conscience.

Merci Sergio pour la bouffée d'oxygène avec Lee et merci Coltaine pour avoir permit le débat. 

[Leif]

Parce que du coup, Lee Morrison en parle souvent du "gouging the eye"...

ha mais rien a voir

entre le pique dans les yeux façon defunes

et gouging the eye qui correspond plus a faire sortir l’œil de sa cavité par pression du pouce qui soit dit en passant est tres dur a faire avec tout les muscles qui protegent l'oeil pour eviter justement que ce dernier aille se ballader.

a++

[run974]

A priori beaucoup d'écoles prônent d'aller en priorité aux yeux, alors que c'est pas forcément la réponse qui marchera le mieux en situation.

double cup and blow ? chop sur l'ax hand ?  

[Leif]

s'adapter et combattre si le besoin se fait sentir.

faire marcher son cerveau a une vitesse enorme pour faire tres vite mal.

l'age du capitaine, l'angle de la main,le petit doigt relever ou pas c'est de la littérature.

deja si tes sphincters ont tenus le coup c'est deja un bon point 

[Chris-C]

A priori beaucoup d'écoles prônent d'aller en priorité aux yeux, alors que c'est pas forcément la réponse qui marchera le mieux en situation.

double cup and blow ? chop sur l'ax hand ?  

Il n'y a pas "la réponse", donc déjà une école qui dit ça c'est "la réponse" c'est foutu.
Il y a plein de petites réponses en fonction de plein de truc qui peuvent faire en sorte que tu rentres chez toi le soir entier vivant.

"Aller en priorité au yeux" je le comprend pas forcément comme une technique qui consiste à rendre aveugle . Mais plutôt comme un effet de surprise rapide sur la vision, dans le sens zone de vision, pour rechercher un reflex inée qui va permettre de créer un flottement qu'il s'agit d'exploiter.

Tant que les sphincters tiennent bon 

[Patrick]

"Aller en priorité au yeux" je le comprend pas forcément comme une technique qui consiste à rendre aveugle . Mais plutôt comme un effet de surprise rapide sur la vision, dans le sens zone de vision, pour rechercher un reflex inée qui va permettre de créer un flottement qu'il s'agit d'exploiter.

Je vais finir par croire que j'ai fait mon job correctement. 

[run974]

Si t'as réussi ton coup, c'est les sphincters du gars a qui t'es en train de masser les pupilles qui lâchent un premier, la nature est bien faite...  

[Dje]

@ Coltaine.
Les yeux, comme d'autres endroits faibles du corps humain, sont protégés par tout un tas de barrières, protections, etc... qui sont tant physiques (les paupières, certains muscles, etc...) que psychologiques/ réactifs (battre des paupières, reculer la tête si on voit que l'oeil risque de morfler, etc...).

Dès lors, croire que "toucher les yeux c'est facile", ou que "les yeux ça marche à tout les coups", ou autres idées préconçues, dont notamment aussi le fameux "un doigt dans l’œil et hop t'es aveugle" ou autre "je t'arrache l’œil avec un doigt" font partie de la mythologie et des idées fausses (trop) largement répandues.

Et dès lors, comme tous les outils, et comme le précise Serge, il y a des moments et des circonstances qui se prêtent à une des attaques aux yeux possibles, et d'autres pas...
Il faut donc se garder de penser : "dans 100% des cas, cette attaque aux yeux précise va marcher à tous les coups toute seule",
mais bien penser : "dans certaines circonstances, une certaine attaque aux yeux parmi celles possible, toute seule mais plus vraisemblablement accompagnée d'autres actions complémentaires, me permettra de me dégager/fuir/mettre hors de combat l'agresseur".

C'est toute la nuance entre l'idée développée et son raccourci.

Amicalement,

Djé

[** Serge **]

Les techniques d'engagement des pouces dans les cavités oculaires exigent également diverses choses qui ne sont pas si faciles à développer :

- travailler en ECQB ( bad breath distance )
- introduire ses pouces dans le corps d'un autre homme ( ça amuse ? Faites-le et pratiquez-le sur une carcasse animale. Ensuite, transposez cela à un être humain )
- maintenir une indexation ( un check, selon Mc Cann ) très forte sur l'adversaire, bras pliés, mains et pouces ancrés sur le visage de celui-ci, avec une pression qui s'exerce de l'avant vers l'arrière, mais aussi de haut en bas
- continuer à travailler avec les membres inférieurs ( coups de genou, stomp, shin kick, shin rake )

Et tout cela, avec quelqu'un qui va se débattre, opérer un déplacement de poids de corps vers l'arrière, et travailler avec mains, coudes, pieds et torsions violentes du corps pour se dégager.

En sachant que la musculature autour de l'oeil est excessivement résiliente.

C'est beaucoup de choses à intégrer et à digérer.
Les stratégies de l'eye jab ( finger jab, tiger claw ) et de l'eye raking sont plus payantes.
Mais, comme on dit : ne jamais dire ' jamais '.

[Lycaon]

Bien d'accord pour l'eye jab, en préemptif afin de créer une ouverture et pouvoir prendre l'avantage (dit comme ça, ça fait très théorique). Ceci dit, je reste très fidèle à l'idée d'Henry Plée sur le travail des armes naturelles pour les avoir beaucoup travaillées durant plusieurs mois. A l'arrivée, il en reste trois ou quatre qui ressortent systématiquement sous stress et avec lesquelles je suis à l'aise (morphologie, anciennes pratiques, gênes de mes ancêtres dirait maître Plée).
Bien d'accord aussi pour fuire la "technique imparable". Eviter les emmerdes, savoir ou on fout les pieds, être vigilant, avoir une bonne condition physique et avoir dans sa "tool box" ce qui marche bien pour nous. Bref des principes généraux et des outils passées au crible de sa propre personnalité.

[Patrick]

Je ne sais pas moi j'ai pas eu daily motion alors faute de science je faisais paf tchac bong et si ça tombait pas assez bien j'essayais de survivre jusqu'à expérimenter autre chose. 

Par contre, ce que je sais c'est qu'un bon étranglement c'est 20 secondes et pas deux trois minutes avant de voir les étoiles et puis plus rien. Et oui la trachée est un cartilage qui peut être enfoncé.

[sharky]

Concernant la trachée est ce que ce qu'écrit Irène Z (je suis son fan !) est vrai ? :

Alios, arrête de relire Irène Z. en boucle et investit dans le DVD de Dr Ruthless

http://www.dr-ruthless.com/dvd.php?PHPSESSID=6814a495697e28e44da3d6f87f24465d

Si les frais de port t'effraient, tu peux le télécharger sur le site de Paladin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76WK6lC1q6M&feature=player_embedded


A+

[Gros Calou]

Pour moi l'autodéfense, c'est pas une science, c'est sauver son cul dans n'importe qu'elle situation, par n'importe quel moyen !

Il m'est arrivé en cours de SD de me retrouver en passive stance devant un mec qui me dit " tu me tends les doigts, je vais te les péter" et moi je lui ai rétorqué "tu vois l'extincteur là et bien je vais te le coller dans la bouche, tu choisis, tu me pètes les doigts mais tu prends l'extincteur dans les canines, et même avec les doigts pétés ça m'empêchera pas de te faire mal "

Je pense qu'il n' y a pas à tirer de shéma, faire des calculs à la Einstein et ou vouloir défaire de noeuds cordéliens, en situation il faut sauver son cul, même si socialement c'est pas beau ouh ! le môssieur il va me gronder 

[gahús]

Alios, arrête de relire Irène Z. en boucle et investit dans le DVD de Dr Ruthless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76WK6lC1q6M&feature=player_embedded

Qu'est qu'ils ont tous à lui sauter dessus ?



Est ce que ce lien a déjà été mis sur le forum ? :

http://www.combatical.com/

[Magic Manu]

Concernant les lésions du larynx, ce n'est pas tant la trachée qui risque la fracture, mais plutôt les cartilages qui sont au dessus: le cartilage cricoïde et surtout le cartilage thyroïde ( la "pomme d'Adam") J'ai vu pas mal de traumatismes du larynx en quelques années... La plupart n'ont nécessité qu'une simple surveillance (après avoir vérifié l'état du larynx en fibroscopie). Les seuls qui ont dû être opérés rapidement était des accidents de la voie publique, où les forces intervenant sont très nettement supérieures à celles qu'un homme même entrainé, peut fournir... Je me souvient d'un motard qui n'avait pas vu un câble électrique tombé à la hauteur de sa gorge, et roulant à 90 km/heure....! Comme il me l'avait dit lui même ensuite, d'une voix quand même assez éraillée : "ça surprend!"

[Bomby]

Merci pour ton commentaire Serge. Il confirme ce que je pensais sur les quelques techniques présentées.

Par contre, il faut que je précise que je suis prof dans un lycée et non instructeur de self  ... Quand je parle de ça à mes élèves, c'est pour les sensibiliser au fait que la sécurité personnelle n'est pas un acquis et que ce n'est pas l'Etat qui va nous l'assurer. Donc je leur parle surtout de la vigilance et des mesures qui permettent d'éviter les problèmes en amont. Je ne parle que très peu des techniques, et uniquement en les décrivant  car je n'ai aucune qualification pour en parler.

Je leur dit de se former auprès des personnes compétentes quoi...

Pour en revenir à ton commentaire et en particulier à cette phrase : "Il est très difficile, sinon dangereux, de s'éveiller à la matière au-travers de tels documents.", je me dis qu'il n'y a pas de façon idéale de découvrir la self puisque de toute façon, aucune méthode ni aucun instructeur ne fait l'unanimité.

Il me semblait que les points positifs de cette émission dépassaient les points négatifs mais je me trompe peut-être car encore une fois, je n'ai pas d'expérience en la matière.

Coltaine.

Salut Coltaine,

pour revenir un peu au début de ce post, et à l'idée de trouver éventuellement tel ou tel support pour s'éveiller à la matière (ici  la self-defense, demain un autre sujet), personnellement je serais plutôt favorable au fait d'utiliser délibérément un support imparfait et de pointer certains défauts facilement remarquables pour favoriser une réception critique de l'information supposément donnée...

Surtout s'il s'agit d'un jeune public, il me semble qu'il y aura toujours grand profit à développer leur esprit critique, a fortiori sur le "vu à la télé", et particulièrement s'il s'agit supposément d'une démonstration scientifique...

Avec un support comme l'épisode de "Combat Science" auquel tu renvoyais, c'est relativement facile : attaquants très coopératifs et ralentis, techniques hasardeuses, enchaînements peu réalistes (l'écrasement du pied de l'agresseur sur le tout premier déplacement après la saisie, les doigts dans les yeux de l'agresseur en arrière par dessus l'épaule - bien sûr, trop facile!-, le coup de la main sur la main sur la trachée, etc...), de façon plus générale la prétention de quantifier et mesurer scientifiquement l'efficacité des ripostes quand c'est pratiquement impossible, il y a beaucoup de choses à dire...

Et justement, quand on voit l'émission, sans recul, ça a l'air facile... Quand on prend un tout petit peu de recul et avec un minimum d'éclairage critique, il y a beaucoup de pipeau et ce n'est plus pareil... Et pourtant, certains principes sont bons, et il y a aussi de bonnes idées...

Donc déjà, si avec un public relativement novice sur le sujet, on arrivait à l'aide d'un support de ce type à faire passer deux idées très basiques qui seraient en substance:

• attention aux clichés souvent véhiculés de la SD facile grâce à la technique imparable
  
• malgré ça, il y a des choses à faire à condition de s'intéresser d'abord aux principes...

ce ne serait pas si mal...

Et ce serait paradoxalement peut-être plus bénéfique que de montrer directement un bon support avec un bon instructeur à un public qui n'aurait pas appris à distinguer les mérites du courant Urban Combatives (par exemple, choisi arbitrairement car précédemment cité dans le post) de ceux du Bulkempo (autre exemple totalement arbitraire).

Cordialement,

Bomby

[** Serge **]

HS : Fourniture d'informations diverses sur Chris Carraci ( apparaissant dans le document présenté initialement dans ce sujet ) :

Quelqu'un qui est peu ( moins ) connu du grand public ( et, certainement, du public européen ), bien que passé sur Fight Science ( National Geographic ).

Gros passé martial, une street credibility monstrueuse, une vie d'instruction ( notamment, Air Marshalls, NJ PD ).

Sur ce site : http://www.maricopatactical.com/articles/tactical-tool-time/

Peu soucieux de soigner sa publicité, pas intéressé par une couverture médiatique susceptible de lui fournir une renommée convenant à l'aboutissement d'une meilleure réussite commerciale, Chris consacre son temps libre et ses efforts à la sauvegarde de chiens-loups, avec sa compagne.

On peut adhérer ou non à son bagage technique en SP ( essentiellement destiné aux LEO ), mais l'homme reste brut de décoffrage, intègre, bourru, foncièrement honnête et fait de l'étoffe de ceux qui sont susceptibles de marquer nos existences.

Un peu plus, sur Chris :

http://www.ourbrotherthewolf.org/BNWS_2008/Our_Founder.html

Quelques textes, pour dévoiler un peu plus l'homme derrière le nom :

Tactical Myths

Brian,
I am sorry that I missed you in NY. I hope all is well with you.
Now, let us address this killer question.

 

Fortunately you said worst, because the list would again be beyond my ability here.

I think, as always I will answer this with the fundamentals in mind, I am not sure exactly what you are looking for but as is customary with you something constructive for our readers I am sure.

I thank you for the question.

Whether or not law enforcement wants to admit it a lot of their tactical fundamentals come from the military. So any problem with the military will certainly manifest itself sooner or later with in tactical law enforcement. There are those in law enforcement that have enough experience to know where the military flaws are but generally that's because they or someone they knew learned it the hard way.

The simplest way to explain this is by saying that the US Military has all the $ but does not have enough real life experience. In law enforcement, in a busy area, tactics are tried daily and if there are bugs they are known immediately.

Another problem with the military, at least in the Spec War community, is that people are forced to rotate and retire, and other experienced veterans leave. The fact that people leave would not be such an issue if it weren't for the fact that there is no network in place to utilize the millions of dollars we put into their respective training and attempt to store their valuable knowledge. With those that rotate, we constantly find people that replace them wanting to reinvent the wheel to feed their own egos and not because there is a better way necessarily. Both of these issues translate into invaluable data and experiences being lost.

Another common military issue is that the farther we move away from the last war, the farther we move away from the lessons we learned. This is because those that taught us are going and gone.



If we look away from the military we find another interesting element.   Without lessons learned from war we look at other arenas where a person with "similar skills" can be judged but this is sport not life and death. There in lies the problem.

If one learns from a champion competition shooter or competition fighter, can one be sure that the techniques used were tactically sound? There was a period that military shooters were performing magazine changes for their handguns from their waist level. This was done because a competition shooter pointed out that this would allow for a faster change due to the reduced necessary movement and proximity of the hands to the magazines.  Yet, invariably this would force an operator to look down ever so briefly.

When targets can move, then a combat veteran will tell you one of the worst things that can happen is for one to take their eye off a moving target.

You see without the advent of real life experience it is difficult to access the techniques being learned. Changing that magazine at eye level and looking through the gun maybe a tad slower but my priority is not losing the bad guy I might be able to afford the minute time delay.

As a young frogman I was very fortunate that I was surrounded by Viet Nam veterans; these lessons and names I will never forget.

I was involved in a training contract as a civilian years later for one of the most elite combat units in the American Military and this was right after their involvement in a small mission that went wrong. I was amazed; at that time they found out that .223 especially green tip (armor piercing ammo) was not effective on people. My first Seal Platoon as I have already referred to was inclined to carry all .308 (M14), this because of the experiences of our OIC (officer-in-charge) a highly decorated war veteran.

I also noted that our (Seal Team One) most fundamental way of mounting a long gun they had never even seen before. They all practiced sport oriented mounting techniques widely taught in some of the premiere shooting schools across the country. Some of these schools were actually initiated by so called combat veterans. It makes you wonder doesn't it?

Our rifles are mounted from a hip firing position; this allows for one thing but is not limited to the weapon always being on target and to allow a comfortable patrolling position. If from that position I was to engage a target and my weapon was blocked from my shoulder mount position by vegetation, architecture or intervention from anything else, I am still in a position to fire my weapon on target. I would rather get a round off low but on target than not to get one off at all. There is no other mount technique that allows the same thing.

Fighting skills are no different; we have few people with the real life street fighting experience. When I was training as a Frogman I thought that if we just suited up and went at it that we would learn what needs to done. Well, I learned that our techniques required some refinement, especially when I started mixing it up in law enforcement with real people
that wanted to kill me, or Ex-cons who have spent 20 years pumping iron and were not going back to the joint for anything.


I fought full contact while in the Navy everywhere and with anybody (various countries) until a man made it clear to me that I was in fact practicing with rules and that in my profession there were no rules. I forgot this lesson once as a cop and I got into the ring to help a friend
and was reminded about it very quickly when suddenly I was not allowed to do what I do best.

VERY IMPORTANT!
I have seen Martial Artists talk some of the best military units into techniques that are not practical but they wouldn't know it for lack of vision and practical experience.

I have a priceless knife in my collection it comes from a Sea Brother (BC) who put two kills on it and prior to that it was given to him by another Frog who had three kills with it. This knife is an unmarked Randell SOG.  It was passed onto me to hold as for the others it now had bad "Ju Ju".

The story of the kills on this knife demonstrates so many lessons. One holder was taught that to kill a person a strike through the rectum would reach the lower aorta (in stomach area) and kill him. Well upon having an occasion to try this technique not once, but twice, (in case the first time he did something wrong), it was learned that a blood bath would ensue and after tens of stabs death did result but not fast and not easy. The next story was about a hairy chest Frogman who carried an M60 and wanted to score a knife body count this time no particular technique was employed but again after a blood bath the result was achieved. The enemy was considerably older and weaker than the Frogman but both were exhausted and one had passed on.

The point here is some people who teach things have no business doing so and others think they know with no experience.

Now I am not trying to say that my experience with a knife or anything else is all-inclusive but I did seek out the training from those who I know have had the unfortunate experience of battle and generally know the result from their technique. I have since gained a good amount of my own battle experience; but then again no matter what technique or how many times one is successful with it there is never a guarantee that it will always work the same way next time, this is why fundamentals are so important!

Practice without rules and be true to your "WAY". Be able to distinguish between sport and impractical techniques for the battle and the practical ones.

A chokehold from the best is ineffective if my knife goes into to their ribs or I rip out their eyes in the process.

This you all must research on your own.

If this writing stimulates some specific questions on specific techniques,
I will welcome them.


I know this was not specific enough for you Brian but there is just so much to say on the subject, and there are so few who truly know, unfortunately those that do often don't say because these experiences are not to be shared with just anyone.

 

 

Here is another thread where Carraci is asked about unarmed training:

The first thing I need to know is what one is trying to accomplish. A "Martial Art" suggests that you are learning an art form and many elements exist for tradition/art sake. That is not to suggest that a Martial Art cannot be practical,I just mean that there is more time needed to reach it.

Many of these "fighting schools" are supposed to be more practical, often however I observe them teaching complex techniques. Your first clue is that I begin with a worst case scenario and work backwards. Therefore in a life and death struggle the technique must be simple and physiologically effective. I would avoid punches for instance due to the required training to be effective and avoid injury. I find knees, elbows and head buts to be on my favored list.If I had to recommend a single Art form it would be a Jujitsu school they generally are more versatile. Another example to be leery of is the mysterious nerve techniques because people are not all made the same and an overconfidence in these techniques can put one in a very precarious position.

Obviously I could go on and on but it is better for you all to ask more specific questions after I answer them fundamentally.

 

 

 More Caracci:

I kind of figured I would have seen this question a little sooner. I appreciate your interest, and I usually don't enjoy qualifying myself but I realize it comes with the turf, so here goes.

My father was a Korean War Veteran Marine, in those days Judo was big. I was fighting with my brother (retired Frogman Sniper, one of the best ever) ever since I remember, Dad was born in NYC (Queens) so not only the Judo, but good old fashioned street fighting, NY style was a mainstay.

I studied Japanese traditional Karate for a while until sixth grade when I started to wrestle. I wrestled all through high school.

In the Navy, at least during my time, there wasn't a whole lot of emphasis on the Martial Arts per say. The question was always asked somewhere by a recruit and the instructor would just hold up a silenced weapon. I studied mostly on my own with the indigenous people where we worked. Seal Team One's theater of operation was primarily Asia and Middle East. So I studied the fighting skills in every country were I could find good people that were willing to spend their time with me.

You must understand this was not capitalism it was love, if they liked you they would show you what they know. These countries included but are not limited tothis includes to date my private time) Phillipines, Korea, China, Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, just to name a few. I have also had some of the best teachers here in America, but you wouldn't know them because they have no reputation in the "Martial Arts Comunity". One of my closest friends is a master and record holder from Maryland (34 year veteran cop), another is a Vietnam Veteran Ranger and 14 year FBI man, ( The famed Doni Brasco's partner) and there are quite a few more.

Buts what's most important about these people was that at a very young age I learned more about mental strategies than anything else. This is because these people were all real, there abilities were honed in battle (LIFE AND DEATH).The limits of the body are all to readily known but who can say what the limits of the mind are?

Most people don't know enough about the real essence of the mental strategies and normally do not think about it's value until the body slows down, but that means they lost a lot of time to develop and access their experience.

My full contact time in the Navy was with anybody from any of the above countries that wanted to mix it up. These occasions were generally pretty unorganized and opened ruled, but there were exceptions.

Weapons were often included, as this was an aid to level the playing field of numbers, size and strength. I enjoy the tomahawk, I always have, it might be the Native American Heritage or just that I see it as an efficient weapon. What I practice with the tomahawk is a compilation of many other weapon fundamentals.

This time developed some very strong fundamentals for me and gave me an extremely strong base. The real refinement came with my law enforcement time, were everything was real and those people were at least trying to hurt me and at best trying to kill me and the learning certainly still continues today. I just see things in a different color you might say and everything seems to me to be dynamics that I constantly access as to practicality and purpose both physical and mental.

There is soooo much more to this and so many giants in my life both male and female, human and animal I couldn't begin to write or explain it all. But that is the best I can do for now I hope that helps a little.

Thanks for the question,

Squid man,
Excellent question, again I appreciate the diversity. This is going to be a long one but it is better to get these out now because I am sure we will be able to refer to them later.

On the Seal issue there are many factors that go into these types of decisions on most teams, not the least of which is politics. An example would be the adoption of the M14 over the FAL. The M14 was chosen not because it was better but because it was built in the US. The Sig is a solid weapon it would not have been my first choice but who can say.

During my time in the teams I always carried a .45. I carried a match 1911 as backup on Seal Team One and I carried a Custom Detonics Scoremaster and S&W 686 while with Six. The last two weapons are in the hands of my friend, a private collector in south FL.

I believe your question was in reference to semiautomatics, thus we will save the revolver issue for another time. I do not believe bigger is necessarily better, I believe it is not always what one has, but what one does with what one has that counts.

I feel that the .357 revolver cartridge is best, but there is not a reasonably sized auto that can fire this cartridge reliably.

So lets first look at single action vs. double action. I was raised on a single action auto but with todays new double action autos I feel they are safer and as reliable in every other way. I feel much more comfortable carrying a chambered P7 than I do a single action .45. Funny thing though, the first double action autos that were released where an answer to a problem that didn't exist. Law enforcement thought the single action autos were too dangerous and that it would require too much time in training their men to make it worth while. That's an average bean counter decision, "unqualified people making qualified decisions".

I next look for the distance the chamber is from one's hand, this will determine how the recoil will effect the shooter. The lower the chamber in the hand the smoother the recoil. This is important for fast accurate rapid fire. The weapon with the lowest chamber is the HK P7 the next are the Glocks and then the CZs. Every other double action puts the chamber too high resulting in greater felt recoil (Sig Sauer).

Next I look at what it takes to operate the weapon as in what buttons exist and where are they placed and are they necessary. The fewer here the better for me, I like simplicity. Here the P7 and Glock win, they are simple with very few buttons and levers. The Glock however loses favor because of the ergonomics the angle of the grip is off, especially for those of us trained on 1911 types, and I do not feel as safe with the Glock chambered unless it is in a quality holster.

Now the P7 also has its glitch it is so unique in its functionality that once one is used to it, they should not carry anything else unless they can train a great deal with the new weapon.

On the safety issue, I feel the P7 wins hands down. In my time I have either seen, or heard from reliable sources that almost all other autos when dropped have fired accidentally. This is extremely relevant to those of us who often carry in a belt without a holster, or even an extremely physical individual with a shoulder holster. I have seen a chambered P7 fall two stories and not a hitch. By the way the P7 is the only handgun in the world that will continue to function even with a broken extractor.

Therefore to make a long story short if I were back in today, I would carry a Glock .40 when swimming and doing the Frogman thing but if it were all land based (VIP, HRT etc.) I would and do carry the HK P7, although mine are the PSP versions for most folk I am sure the American ones will be fine.

 

 

CJ Caracci 11-16-2001 08:44 PM

Response to combined threads (Knife vs Knife & 5'6" vs 6'4")

Gentleman I have chosen to combine these two threads because they are of the same origin or should I say the Knife thread has evolved to this. First of all it was my understanding that the original post from mschwoeb was for some info. on a knife fight involving someone else who has obviously brandished a knife. I am also sure he/she is not looking for this experience anytime soon.

Next the introduced handgun issue; well argued but misunderstood.

Then it was the size thread, about what to do, if anything.

Finally a lawyer who admits it!

Both of these threads are now to be combined as all of your concerns are of the same foundation. What bothers me is if you all are this serious, then have Andy Prisco set up a class for you, and I will put this all to rest, once and for all!

I would not only demonstrate to you the appropriate state of mind but also a way to combine all of your fundamental fighting skills, so that if you had nothing or if you had a knife or gun it would all be the same.

In the event this does not happen, I will give you my thoughts on all of this.

It seems that some of you think it is easier and cheaper to argue your cases with words, but I DO NOT! That is why I say bring your guns and knives and I will show you.

I tend to get annoyed when people TALK about these issues this gets my scruff up!

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW, THEN LETS DO THIS!

Now that I have that off my chest I realize some of you may not have the time or $ so I will continue to do my very best with the written word here.

The size thing is interesting yet ludicrous all at the same time. It is interesting to me that you don't really realize that size doesn't matter and ludicrous because God forbid it happens what are you going to do, "say he is bigger than me and quit"?

One of first things that I was taught about life and death is that when size/strength is an issue one may compensate by introducing a weapon. Next is, how do you know if the muggers on the size thread are just going to ruff you up? What if they kill you by accident? When are you going to decide to take a chance and fight or let it happen because they are just "going to ruff you up"?

Now lets throw in some lawyer stuff; what justifies one in the use of deadly force (nation wide); one must be in fear for his life or someone else's and you will have to effectively convey this to a grand jury or court of law. In the end, if one really fears for their life nothing else matters, anything goes! Afterward, sometimes immediately if your smart, you start playing the game, like calling for an ambulance because you didn't really wish to kill someone. You were just trying to stop them from doing what they were doing and now you really want to help them.

There is so much one can learn about the fight and it does not take years to master these skills it just takes desire. The fight is not decided by, "the dog in the fight but rather the fight in the dog", you must believe this otherwise I have nothing further to offer you.

I don't know if you guys read the other threads but it is all the same stuff.

It all starts with your mentality!@$#^%$^%^&*!

The final word on the size issue is this it is all-relative. I am 6'1" 210 and there is a huge # of people that are bigger than me. I do not care it means nothing to me.

There is one thing on all people and animals that is the same, it is void of the size strength issue, and that is their head. But it is not void of the content issue.

You will have to think about that one on your own.

In reference to fighting fundamentals and the gun vs. whatever issue, let me remind you that I do not care who you are, things can and do go wrong. Here you are a bad guy at 20' or whatever, he begins to run at you as fast as he can saying he is going to kill you:

1. Do you believe he can and are you in fear for your life.
2. The obvious is a given if you see a weapon then it's an easy day.
3. If you don't see a weapon what does that mean?

Now you attempt to shoot and you miss.
Now you shoot hit, and he is still coming, even if he is dead on his feet.
Now you attempt to shoot and your gun breaks or malfunctions.
Now you shoot and hit, but he has on a ballistic vest.
I can go on and on……………

I have closed on people from approximately 20' over and over, these attacks are all well documented on video. I do not believe in using my students as ego fodder; if I am not willing to demonstrate the technique full go at anytime with anyone then I am just a shyster.

I also would add here that not only would I tell a student (usually trained pro.) exactly what I am going to do. I will give them an increased advantage by allowing the weapon to be cocked and unsecured. All I ask a student to do is when they see me begin to move try to get off one well placed shot so that you know it's a head shot, as this is the most positive method in stopping me.

I am at about 90% on students never getting one round off and 100% on more than one. Of the students that get one round off probably 80% of those shots are either non-lethal or at least not immediately lethal and if they don't get another one off WHERE AM I?

Now regardless of what weapon one has should they not know the fundamentals of fighting? Because sooner or later your tools can and will fail, it is the law of averages. If every decision you make has to be worth your life than I guess you better learn or as we say in the Navy quit and ring out.

Please don't gauge your ability by goofing around with someone because I bet your not ripping their eyes out!

Please don't tell me about multiple offenders my record to date without guns to the best of my knowledge is four, three guys and one girl, and that's not counting my bar and riot time.

Again I SAY, "IF I DO NOT KNOW THE WAY, I WILL FIND THE WAY" I do not quit so I will never know how to and I do not concern myself with someone else's abilities rather I concern myself with what I can control which is my abilities.

So train, train, train with someone who knows. If you say I cannot, then start by at least training your mind.

CJ tenait une rubrique sur Blade Forums :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=5756353

Et, de notoriété publique, il fut à la base de la création de l'AFCK de benchmade.

[Lemuel]

Ce qui me frappe c'est cette volonté de vouloir quantifier les dégâts d'une technique alors même que cette technique n'est pas utilisée dans ses conditions normales d'application.

[djedje94]

Salut tout le monde,

Je vous trouve une peu dur sur le jugement de ce petit doc.!!!
On n'a pas le droit à des techniques abracadabra, et c'est deja pas mal!
Ensuite, l'accent est mis sur peut être l'une des choses les + importante ==> être conscient de son environnement, et du danger potentiel qu'il représente.
On explique bien que dans une confrontation physique, on est dans une dynamique de : "survivre ou mourir" et non d’échange comme dans le sports et bcp d'autres systèmes de SD qui sont enseignés.
Le but est de stopper la dynamique l'agression (avec des techniques qui me semblent plus que vraisemblables!) s'assurer que l'agresseur ne puisse vous poursuivre une fois la menace "traité", et s'enfuir! Tout y est!

Franchement, si la moitié des écoles de self enseignaient ce genre de basics se serait déjà pas mal non ?!?!?!

Dans la partie ou le mec du Krav intervient parle même de feindre la soumission, la aussi, un des principes de base.
Ca façon de gérer l'attaque de 2 pax est plus qu’honorable, en tout cas, pour ma part je n'ai rien de mieux à proposer!!!

Donc mon avis: Très bon documentaire!