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Auteur Sujet: bataireacht !  (Lu 8399 fois)

02 juin 2011 à 14:34:53
Lu 8399 fois

Gros Calou


Hello  :)

Je recherche tout document écrit, livres sur "bataireacht" lart martial Irlandais.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbJA_c5vIeU&feature=related

Si vous avez quelque choses qui traîne chez vous  ;#

02 juin 2011 à 15:59:47
Réponse #1

sharky




Il faut  que je fouille mon disque dur mais je dois avoir quelques pdf.
''what you learn in the afternoon must work for you that evening in the parking lot" Kelly Mc Cann

"despite what your mamma told you, violence does solve problems." Ryan Job

02 juin 2011 à 18:30:26
Réponse #2

** Serge **


"The quality of your life is a direct reflection of the quality of your communication with yourself and others." - Anthony Robbins
http://jahozafat.com/0029585851/MP3S/Movies/Pulp_Fiction/dicks.mp3
"Communications without intelligence is noise; Intelligence without communications is irrelevant." ~ Gen. Alfred. M. Gray, USMC

02 juin 2011 à 18:50:36
Réponse #3

Patrick


Comme tu le sais, je cherche aussi des sources intéressantes depuis une dizaine d'année.

D'après ce que j'ai lu jusqu'à présent, si on peut parler de l'arme sous sa forme courte de type war club/cudgel

 
ou longue bata


comme d'armes nationales, il semble qu'on ait à faire avec des styles propres à des clans, comme souvent dans le monde Celte et du fait de lutte inter clans sur plusieurs générations.

Les formes modernes semblent avoir reçues des influences du fait de la pratique d'autres styles extérieurs à l'Irlande.

Un film ou on voit le processus de sélection et de fabrication des sticks et des sticks d'entraînement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbDCfq1joNM&feature=related

02 juin 2011 à 20:02:55
Réponse #4

sharky


''what you learn in the afternoon must work for you that evening in the parking lot" Kelly Mc Cann

"despite what your mamma told you, violence does solve problems." Ryan Job

02 juin 2011 à 20:18:37
Réponse #5

Kilbith


"Vim vi repellere omnia jura legesque permittunt"

02 juin 2011 à 20:25:36
Réponse #6

sharky


''what you learn in the afternoon must work for you that evening in the parking lot" Kelly Mc Cann

"despite what your mamma told you, violence does solve problems." Ryan Job

04 juin 2011 à 08:38:08
Réponse #7

Patrick


« Modifié: 04 juin 2011 à 08:43:11 par Patrick »

04 juin 2011 à 10:36:57
Réponse #8

Patrick


Le plus complet que j'ai pu trouver, celui de Glenn Doyle

Plutôt du modern irish fighting stick, mais les écoles traditionnelles ne font pas beaucoup publicité de leurs principes.

http://www.reocities.com/glendoyle/bata/


04 juin 2011 à 12:06:41
Réponse #10

Leif


pourquoi cet engouement pour le style irlandais?

on y retrouve encore un style martial avec ses composantes historiques et ses armes particulières.

ses déplacements particuliers etc...

quand vous recherchez ça c'est pourquoi?

juste pour m'aider dans ma propre recherche :up:


parce que peso le style homme des cavernes ça marche vraiment très bien :)

04 juin 2011 à 12:27:11
Réponse #11

** Serge **


En ce qui me concerne, le Shillelagh m'intéresse comme objet ( walking stick ) détourné de sa fonction principale et son histoire me touche ( ascendance irlandaise oblige ).
Comme chercheur amateur, l'analyse de la pratique me parait sensée.

D'un point de vue pratique : tout ce qui concerne le combat bâton c/bâton ne m'intéresse pas ( dans l'optique protection personnelle ), de même que son footwork spécifique ( très contradictoire avec un bagage combative bien ancré ). Seuls quelques frappes communes à d'autres systèmes ( DDLR, Kengla, Fairbairn, Styers, etc ... ) sont exploitables dans l'optique d'une protection personnelle et de techniques non télégraphiées.

Certains systèmes sont beaucoup plus brutaux, radicaux et directs dans l'usage du bâton contre un adversaire lui-même dépourvu de bâton.

Je partage un peu ta surprise concernant l'art martial traditionnel.
Mais, l'objet ( Shillelagh ) retient mon attention.
« Modifié: 04 juin 2011 à 13:21:28 par ** Serge ** »
"The quality of your life is a direct reflection of the quality of your communication with yourself and others." - Anthony Robbins
http://jahozafat.com/0029585851/MP3S/Movies/Pulp_Fiction/dicks.mp3
"Communications without intelligence is noise; Intelligence without communications is irrelevant." ~ Gen. Alfred. M. Gray, USMC

04 juin 2011 à 12:30:08
Réponse #12

Patrick


pourquoi cet engouement pour le style irlandais?
quand vous recherchez ça c'est pourquoi?
juste pour m'aider dans ma propre recherche :up:
D'abord, je crois qu'il faut aimer la culture Irlandaise et les Irlandais eux-mêmes. Ensuite, il y a l'objet, le Bhata, qui dégage quelque chose d'indescriptible qu'on ressent ou pas.

Enfin nos amis Irlandais ayant été contraints pendant 300 ans a ne pas pouvoir utiliser les armes blanches et à feu, il ont vraiment développés des principes alliant techniques, stratégies et tactiques intéessantes et qui sont parmi les rares cultures martiales vraiment contemporaines et qui du fait de la diaspora s'est beaucoup exportée.

Et puis, l'Irlandais est chaleureux mais jumpy, ça me correspond bien.  ;D

04 juin 2011 à 12:38:54
Réponse #13

Leif


la c'est plus clair :up:

 en fait c’est l'historique ,avec tout ce que possède l’Irlande, ok je vous rejoins parfaitement et je suis d'accord sur la beauté des shillelags.

j'avais compris un truc de travers ::)

04 juin 2011 à 12:44:26
Réponse #14

Gros Calou


D'abord, je crois qu'il faut aimer la culture Irlandaise et les Irlandais eux-mêmes. Ensuite, il y a l'objet, le Bhata, qui dégage quelque chose d'indescriptible qu'on ressent ou pas.
Enfin nos amis Irlandais ayant été contraints pendant 300 ans a ne pas pouvoir utiliser les armes blanches et à feu, il ont vraiment développés des principes alliant techniques, stratégies et tactiques intéessantes et qui sont parmi les rares cultures martiales vraiment contemporaines et qui du fait de la diaspora s'est beaucoup exportée.
Et puis, l'Irlandais est chaleureux mais jumpy, ça me correspond bien.  ;D

Miguel pareil !  ;#

Mon arrière grand-mère s'appelais Abaigh Malfroy, j'aime la Guiness et je suis fan de Jack Finlay  ;#
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8TCXgRA4Os
« Modifié: 04 juin 2011 à 12:58:03 par Gros Calou »

04 juin 2011 à 12:46:21
Réponse #15

** Serge **


En ce qui concerne l'usage ordinaire du bâton, de la canne, du walking stick en matière de protection personnelle, je soutiens le travail de recherche et de codification mené par deux amis  ( Ralph Grasso & Josh Morale ), nommé Americane :

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/americane-the-grasso-morale-method-of-personal-defense/13513616

Issus des FMA, pratiquants en WWII combatives, chercheurs et élèves de Carl Cestari, ils ont produit un système compact, cohérent et brutal.



© - Ralph Grasso / Josh Morale

Pour une somme ridicule, par l'intermédiaire de LULU, vous pouvez l'acquérir et soutenir le travail de nombreuses années de deux chercheurs.

Oui, ceci est une info partisane, commerciale et tendancieuse. Mais, je ne conseille jamais l'achat de produits frauduleux et de mauvaise qualité.

Je combine cela avec des tuyaux techniques dispensés par le camarade Mike ( Blackgrave ) et par un autre compagnon chercheur : http://www.youtube.com/user/BigStickCombat

Tout cela, posé sur un système  stick WWII combatives, fournit une base simple, efficace, reproductible et excessivement préjudiciable pour l'adversaire.
« Modifié: 11 juin 2011 à 13:06:40 par ** Serge ** »
"The quality of your life is a direct reflection of the quality of your communication with yourself and others." - Anthony Robbins
http://jahozafat.com/0029585851/MP3S/Movies/Pulp_Fiction/dicks.mp3
"Communications without intelligence is noise; Intelligence without communications is irrelevant." ~ Gen. Alfred. M. Gray, USMC

11 juin 2011 à 20:29:17
Réponse #16

Patrick


History

One of the hypotheses on the birth of the shillelagh comes directly from the prehistory of Ireland1. The island was occupied before the arrival of the Celts around 500 B.C. (a date which is subject to debate), as early as 8000 B.C. The people living in those times were much smaller than those who succeeded them, as proven by several artifacts from the Bronze Age. Following the arrival of the Celts, they were driven to the center of the island. Many of their chiefs decided to follow the ways of the Celts, but some, united by the chief Ealach, refused and isolated themselves. They were known as Siol Eolaigh or followers
of Ealach, a term which might have been the source of the word Shillelagh, as these people were often associated with the blackthorn sticks, which they would have used without removing the spikes. Their ability to disappear across the mazes created by the bushes of this plant, created myths around them and were soon nicknamed Leprechauns by the Norman occupants. They also had a reputation of being good shoe-makers and potters and so people would often leave their broken pots and shoes by their doors so they could be repaired by the small peoples. Their association with the blackthorn sticks also produced a lasting tradition. It was a belief that hanging a blackthorn branch outside your house would act as a lucky charm.
This may be explained by the fact that the Leprechauns considered it as a weapon and lacking a sense of property like some Amerindian tribes, they would often steal objects. So people would hang blackthorn branches outside their house to indicate that the owner was armed with a shillelagh and knew how to use it.
The stick is one of, if not the oldest weapon of mankind. It was used by all layers of society and can be found on Egyptian hieroglyphs (Hurley, 2007), on Greco-Roman representations of Hercules and on the notorious tapestry of Bayeux, in the hands of William the conqueror himself. And as we’ve seen, the use of the blackthorn stick could go back to the foundations of Ireland’s history. But it isn’t before the 14th century that the term shillelagh is 1 Again, most of this was taken from Mr. Keally, unless noted otherwise used as we know it today. It would actually come from Richard II (Mounde, 1904) king of England from 1377 to 1400 AD. In 1399, Richard would mount an expedition against the rebellious Irishmen of Leinster. This event was put under writing by the contemporary historian Jean Creton. Richard pursued across the plains of Imal and Glenmalure the chief Art Mor McMurrough and his ally Domichadh Mac Brain Ruaidh O'Byrne. But rapidly the
situation reversed, the Irish, much more familiar with the terrain and more mobile would make their enemies suffer a living hell. Richard would complain about the use of the sticks of Shillelagh against his men. Like guerrilla warfare, the Irish would attack and retreat quickly into the woods. The English survivors, strained and starving would rejoin the coast where supplies were waiting for them. This trip would be fatal for Richard II; his cousin Henry taking the opportunity of his absence and defeats to take power and have him imprisoned and assassinated on his return to England.

A song from the 18th century, The Sprig of Shillelagh is also known to have popularized the term and exported it through the Irish immigrations. This song talks about the presumed last great oak tree from the grand forest. The origin of the term is subject to debate, John Hurley assumes rather, that the name rather comes from two Gaelic words sail (mallet) and éille (strap) so sail-éille or shillelagh meaning a mallet with a strap, which was often fitted on some of those sticks (Hurley, 2007).

The Shillelagh continued to be used as a weapon aside axes, swords, spears and a whole panoply of weapons. But by the 17th century, a new phenomenon would be pivotal in its development as a martial art: the faction fights (Hurley, 2007). This is a very peculiar trait of Ireland’s history that is not often talked about. It was a brawl in which two or more armed groups, or factions, fought in a friendly or hostile way, in a given place. Factions were composed of families or political groups. A fight could happen for diverse
reasons, an insult (that could have originated many generations ago), a wedding, a funeral, a feast or just simply for fun (Conley, 1995). Sometimes, when a new mayor was elected, the partisans would form in factions to block up the way of the voting polls to the other factions. If they wanted to vote, they should then bring enough people to make their way to the polls. The shillelagh was often the weapon of choice, but a very diverse array of weaponry was also used, ranging from axes, knives, bill hooks, an occasional sword or rarely, guns. Women would also be represented in those fights (Conley, 1995), most of the time wielding socks
filled with rocks, the same thing used in medieval judiciary duels in Europe. Most of the time, it was prohibited to hit a woman with a stick.

Duel was also very popular. It was common for an individual seeking a fight to drag his coat behind him. If someone wanted to fight him he would only need to step on it, hence the expression coat dragging or seeking trouble. Another popular way of seeking a duel was to shout: Who dares to say that the black of my eye is white? Or any other question leading to an argument.

The shillelagh also represented the passage to adulthood. Once a young man became an adult, he received his stick. Maybe this originated from Celtic traditions, in which the blackthorn is a sacred plant: being the first to bloom in spring, it is the symbol of a new season of abundance and hope. It is also interesting to note the link between hurling and shillelagh bata. Hurling is a very old Gaelic sport, still very popular in Ireland, resembling La Crosse in which an axe-like stick is used, resembling a shillelagh. This sport was once used to train youngsters in the tactics of warfare and teamwork. It was not rare for people to be kiled in such games (Conley,1999), and faction fighters were often very close to hurling groups. The hurling stick was in fact used as a weapon in faction fights (Hurley, 2007). Its use would go on until the 18th century when England will pass an interdiction against Irishmen owning weapons. Like many people of the past who were refrained from bearing arms, the Irish had the idea to disguise their weapon as an everyday tool, in this case a walking stick. Faction fights would thus continue, some being very bloody. The biggest reported was in 1834 at the St-John Baptist day in Ballyveigh strand in County Kerry. On one side the Coolens, on the other The Blacks and Mulvihills. About 3000 fighters were present, and once the dust settled, 200 people were dead. In the year of 1836 alone, about 100 faction fights occured in Ireland. Irish immigrants also brought the tradition with them, and some faction fights are also known to have erupted in America, notably in the Five Points district in New-York city, events which inspired the movie gangs of New-York in 2002; as well as in Newfoundland. After the 1840’s, faction fights began to decrease in number the last officially
reported was in 1887 in Tipperary. However I did collect some testimonies of fights which took place after this date, and that even today some are fought between Tinkers groups (Irish gypsies), firearms being more common, but a spiked bill hook being a characteristic weapon.

17 juin 2011 à 23:33:27
Réponse #17

** Serge **


"The quality of your life is a direct reflection of the quality of your communication with yourself and others." - Anthony Robbins
http://jahozafat.com/0029585851/MP3S/Movies/Pulp_Fiction/dicks.mp3
"Communications without intelligence is noise; Intelligence without communications is irrelevant." ~ Gen. Alfred. M. Gray, USMC

19 juin 2011 à 11:23:03
Réponse #18

guy



Intéressant cet article Patrick. Je me demande bien dans quel état on ressort d'un duel au shillelagh...



Most of the time, it was prohibited to hit a woman with a stick.
:wife:  >:(  ;)
Toornaarsuk!

19 juin 2011 à 15:38:12
Réponse #19

Patrick


Quand on voit déjà l'efficacité intrinsèque des walking/fighting sticks de maintenant qui sont plus légers et les véritables "gourdins" sur les gravures et photos d'époque, ça laisse peu de doute sur l'efficacité des coups.

 


Keep in mind

Bienveillance, n.f. : disposition affective d'une volonté qui vise le bien et le bonheur d'autrui. (Wikipedia).

« [...] ce qui devrait toujours nous éveiller quant à l'obligation de s'adresser à l'autre comme l'on voudrait que l'on s'adresse à nous :
avec bienveillance, curiosité et un appétit pour le dialogue et la réflexion que l'interlocuteur peut susciter. »


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